Comments on: Of elephants in rooms http://www.sevenwholedays.org/2009/07/02/of-elephants-in-rooms/ "Seven whole days, not one in seven, I will praise thee" -- George Herbert (1633) Sun, 05 Feb 2012 17:05:27 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Rich Bardusch http://www.sevenwholedays.org/2009/07/02/of-elephants-in-rooms/comment-page-1/#comment-2053 Rich Bardusch Mon, 06 Jul 2009 12:43:10 +0000 http://www.sevenwholedays.org/?p=1269#comment-2053 I second Peter's comment! I will say a prayer that everyone at GC reads this post. I second Peter’s comment! I will say a prayer that everyone at GC reads this post.

]]> By: Phil Snyder http://www.sevenwholedays.org/2009/07/02/of-elephants-in-rooms/comment-page-1/#comment-2040 Phil Snyder Fri, 03 Jul 2009 01:24:44 +0000 http://www.sevenwholedays.org/?p=1269#comment-2040 Scott - good article. I believe that 40 years of Liberal ascendancy has left us without a Gospel Proclaimation. It seems that we have become a Church of Latitudinarians where what we believe is not so imporant as what we do - socially. The call I see TEC giving the world is to come and be made nice. It is not the call to come and let God kill you so that He can raise you to new life. Combine that with 33 years of very serious conflict (the BCP, Women's Ordination, inclusinve language and the place of homosexual sex within the life of the Church and now TEC is know as the church that sues its members - I had a RC Deacon ask me why TEC was suing congregations and individuals in those congregations that held title to their own property last weekend when I was in prison) and you have a great recipie for decline in attendance and membership. What we need to recover is a witness to Jesus' power ot make all of creation new - after it has been killed. We need to recover our evangelistic zeal and be very clear that, while we don't know what doesn't work when it comes to bring health, wholeness, salvation, and union with God; we do know what does - Jesus does. We also need to recover the meaning of faith as "trust" rather than "belief." All too often we think of faith as accepting a set of theological propositions, but we never risk ourselves with them. Above all, we (particularly we clergy) need to recover our call and mandate to be instructors and guides in what living as a new creature means. YBIC, Phil Snyder Scott – good article. I believe that 40 years of Liberal ascendancy has left us without a Gospel Proclaimation. It seems that we have become a Church of Latitudinarians where what we believe is not so imporant as what we do – socially. The call I see TEC giving the world is to come and be made nice. It is not the call to come and let God kill you so that He can raise you to new life.

Combine that with 33 years of very serious conflict (the BCP, Women’s Ordination, inclusinve language and the place of homosexual sex within the life of the Church and now TEC is know as the church that sues its members – I had a RC Deacon ask me why TEC was suing congregations and individuals in those congregations that held title to their own property last weekend when I was in prison) and you have a great recipie for decline in attendance and membership.

What we need to recover is a witness to Jesus’ power ot make all of creation new – after it has been killed. We need to recover our evangelistic zeal and be very clear that, while we don’t know what doesn’t work when it comes to bring health, wholeness, salvation, and union with God; we do know what does – Jesus does.

We also need to recover the meaning of faith as “trust” rather than “belief.” All too often we think of faith as accepting a set of theological propositions, but we never risk ourselves with them.

Above all, we (particularly we clergy) need to recover our call and mandate to be instructors and guides in what living as a new creature means.

YBIC,
Phil Snyder

]]> By: Robert Morris http://www.sevenwholedays.org/2009/07/02/of-elephants-in-rooms/comment-page-1/#comment-2039 Robert Morris Thu, 02 Jul 2009 22:18:22 +0000 http://www.sevenwholedays.org/?p=1269#comment-2039 Your article targets the crucial issue facing this church and all the once "mainstream" Protestant denominations. I was just having at the Bishop of Newark about this very thing this morning, and will forward these observations to him. The evangelicals and pentecostals care about salvation, and more and more of them in the fuller sense that includes the social dimension. Most importantly, they have an entrepreneurial energy that is more important than their conservative theology. Well done! Your article targets the crucial issue facing this church and all the once “mainstream” Protestant denominations. I was just having at the Bishop of Newark about this very thing this morning, and will forward these observations to him. The evangelicals and pentecostals care about salvation, and more and more of them in the fuller sense that includes the social dimension. Most importantly, they have an entrepreneurial energy that is more important than their conservative theology. Well done!

]]> By: John Gardner http://www.sevenwholedays.org/2009/07/02/of-elephants-in-rooms/comment-page-1/#comment-2037 John Gardner Thu, 02 Jul 2009 19:52:09 +0000 http://www.sevenwholedays.org/?p=1269#comment-2037 I stumbled on this article thanks to Pete Mayer. Thanks for writing this--I'll make sure the deputies from Southwestern Virginia have a chance to read this! I stumbled on this article thanks to Pete Mayer. Thanks for writing this–I’ll make sure the deputies from Southwestern Virginia have a chance to read this!

]]> By: Bob Chapman http://www.sevenwholedays.org/2009/07/02/of-elephants-in-rooms/comment-page-1/#comment-2036 Bob Chapman Thu, 02 Jul 2009 17:54:08 +0000 http://www.sevenwholedays.org/?p=1269#comment-2036 This Episcopal Church is good at majoring in minors, as are all denominations. We have one difference. With our history, we can do it in evangelical, Anglo-catholic, or social gospel ways at the same time. Most denominations choose one of those in which to specialize. It is easy to place the secondary in place of the primary. The evangelical mistake is to put into practice what they sing in the song "Jesus Loves Me." "The Bible tells me so" turns the converting work of the Holy Spirit into a form of Pelagianism. We are not able to make a decision to accept Jesus by reading the Bible. It is not our decision that makes us Christian; it was God's decision that makes us Christian. We can only turn away from Love. The Anglo-catholic mistake is to take an experience of true worship of God and think that anyone will be worshiping God if they only do the same motions. The motions may put us into the right frame of mind to receive Grace, but we can't force God's hand. It is God's action, not our action. The social gospel approach is the most slippery of slopes. Jesus says our delivery of that cup of cold water to someone means we gave it to Him. Well, who wouldn't want to give Jesus a cup of water? The problem comes when we start delivering that cup of cold water to someone else in order to help us--instead of helping that other person. The act of kindness turns into an act of self-seeking greed. I only say this because, if General Convention acknowledges the elephant, then individuals will tend to prescribe what worked for them to everyone else. It doesn't make any difference if it finding a way to tweat the Gospel, post-modern worship, or the MDGs: one solution does not fit all. Personally, I think particular one solution doesn't fit one person. While I think everyone at General Convention would agree intellecutally, people tend to disagree with their hearts. My prayers are with everyone at General Convention. May they preach the Gospel to the world--using words, if necessary. This Episcopal Church is good at majoring in minors, as are all denominations. We have one difference. With our history, we can do it in evangelical, Anglo-catholic, or social gospel ways at the same time. Most denominations choose one of those in which to specialize.

It is easy to place the secondary in place of the primary.

The evangelical mistake is to put into practice what they sing in the song “Jesus Loves Me.” “The Bible tells me so” turns the converting work of the Holy Spirit into a form of Pelagianism. We are not able to make a decision to accept Jesus by reading the Bible. It is not our decision that makes us Christian; it was God’s decision that makes us Christian. We can only turn away from Love.

The Anglo-catholic mistake is to take an experience of true worship of God and think that anyone will be worshiping God if they only do the same motions. The motions may put us into the right frame of mind to receive Grace, but we can’t force God’s hand. It is God’s action, not our action.

The social gospel approach is the most slippery of slopes. Jesus says our delivery of that cup of cold water to someone means we gave it to Him. Well, who wouldn’t want to give Jesus a cup of water? The problem comes when we start delivering that cup of cold water to someone else in order to help us–instead of helping that other person. The act of kindness turns into an act of self-seeking greed.

I only say this because, if General Convention acknowledges the elephant, then individuals will tend to prescribe what worked for them to everyone else. It doesn’t make any difference if it finding a way to tweat the Gospel, post-modern worship, or the MDGs: one solution does not fit all.

Personally, I think particular one solution doesn’t fit one person. While I think everyone at General Convention would agree intellecutally, people tend to disagree with their hearts.

My prayers are with everyone at General Convention. May they preach the Gospel to the world–using words, if necessary.

]]> By: Greg Cole http://www.sevenwholedays.org/2009/07/02/of-elephants-in-rooms/comment-page-1/#comment-2035 Greg Cole Thu, 02 Jul 2009 17:17:15 +0000 http://www.sevenwholedays.org/?p=1269#comment-2035 Great words. I couldn't agree more. The church that I experience is in the preservation business - buildings, institutions, tradition, etc. We need to be in the transformation business, even if that means letting go of some of our sacred things and ways. I don't think that Jesus cares too much about our buildings that are on the Register of Historic Places. Jesus came to bring us abundant life as people reconciled to God. All else stems from that! Great words. I couldn’t agree more. The church that I experience is in the preservation business – buildings, institutions, tradition, etc. We need to be in the transformation business, even if that means letting go of some of our sacred things and ways. I don’t think that Jesus cares too much about our buildings that are on the Register of Historic Places. Jesus came to bring us abundant life as people reconciled to God. All else stems from that!

]]> By: Peter Mayer http://www.sevenwholedays.org/2009/07/02/of-elephants-in-rooms/comment-page-1/#comment-2034 Peter Mayer Thu, 02 Jul 2009 16:53:18 +0000 http://www.sevenwholedays.org/?p=1269#comment-2034 This is best thing about the church I've read in a long time. This should be on everyone's hotel pillow along with the chocolate when they arrive to GC. This is best thing about the church I’ve read in a long time. This should be on everyone’s hotel pillow along with the chocolate when they arrive to GC.

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